Bike Build: Build thread - Bertin 650b (or maybe not) randonneuse

I needed a project, to keep idle hands usefully occupied. I've been tossing around the idea of building up this Bertin as a loaded touring bike, converting the 700c wheels to 650b fatties. Even though I have appropriate brakes and a tripleizeable TA Pro V crankset (the ones that came stock with the frame), I hadn't given this a huge amount of attention. I took occasional stabs at removing the gold rattlecanning from atop the stock coppertone paint, but nothing serious.

A few recent acquisitions have moved this up on my radar:

1) NOS gold-plated Mafac 2000 brakeset, given to me by the local bike kitchen in exchange for my efforts to find a buyer for a recently donated gold-plated Lambert Professional Grand Prix

2) An NOS Edco Competition sealed BB, triple chainring (c'est suisse, et très très précis) with French-thread cups

Getting a chainline-adjustable sealed BB French bottom bracket for cheaper than I can get the new non-adjustable ones from Velo Orange is a big kick in the right direction (although I'm curious to see if Phil's English cups will fit it).

Here's my thinking:

1. Clean off the rust and the rattlecanning, preserving as much original paint/decals/chrome as possible


2. Extract the rusted-in seatpost, stem and BB; clean up headset, seat tube and BB shell


3. Replace loose-ball (TA?) BB with Edco; replace seatpost with the 26.2 Campy NR I just happen to have

And after that, indecision sets in. The dropouts have no derailleur hanger, but I found a Suntour hanger; the spacing is 126mm, but I can get a 130mm hub in without stretching, and a 135mm with just a little effort. Given that I'm going to have to buy/build a 650b wheelset, I have to make hub decisions. I'd prefer to go the generator route in front (lights with batteries are really pissing me off), but if I use a standard road/mountain freehub in back, I could use a standard mountain cassette for lower gearing. If I use Shimano barcons, I can switch from index to friction in emergencies. The big debate here is whether to go 9-gear indexed, or 6/7-gear friction freewheel.

Bertin was affiliated with Ron Kitching in England, and they were among the first European manufacturers to use Japanese components in the '70s: Kitching used all-Suntour, and Bertin used all-Shimano (after Bertin died in the '90s, Shimano Benelux bought the Bertin factory). So there's a historical alibi for Shimano, and I have a fair amount of XT stuff stashed away. However, if I do go friction, I'd rather use Suntour. I've been cleaning up a Vx-GT rear derailleur for the last few days, and that will do for testing purposes. Ideally, though, this would be way cool:



Racks, fenders, battery-free lights (probably a combination of hub-generator lights and Reelight magnetic induction lights). Pedals - Crank Brothers or platform (Phil CHP? Lyotard Marcel Berthet 23? White Industries Urban Platform? If the Shopping/Negotiating Fairy smiles on me, TA 4690?)

I suspect I'm going to need a longer, higher stem to get enough height; the frame feels a teeny bit small, although I've only sized it with 700c/23 wheels/tires. I'm thinking a Nitto Technomic; since they're currently manufactured, I can sand it down to fit a French headset without qualms, and then fit a standard-sized bar.

Bars: Randonneurish. I have a 25.4 diameter GB now, about 41cm; I'd rather go wider. If I stay with a 25.4 stem, then a 45cm Nitto Randonneur; otherwise maybe get a 46cm Nitto Noodle, swap the 46 for the 44cm Noodle on my International, and put the 44 on the Bertin. Nothing French; I'll never find a French-diameter 25mm bar wide enough.

Suspended leather saddle: Brooks Pro (there's an OK one up for grabs at the kitchen), Ideale 80/90, or Selle An-Atomica (I love these things).

And if all this doesn't work out, I swear I'll go retrodirect.

This will take a while, and I'm open to suggestions.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to drop a 650b wheelset into the frame. Even here in the Bay Area, AKA Bike Aesthete Central, there aren't a lot of 650bs around; most of them are Rivendells, and owners of such wheels are less than crazy about loaning out their wheels. That's a good thought, though; I might walk the frame into Jitensha Studios or Rivendell, and see if they've got some wheels around I can use to gauge size.

My current instinct on brakes is to stick with Mafac centerpulls. I have several sets of them (including the originals still on the frameset), they work pretty well as long as you have Kool-Stop pads, they have a pretty wide range of pad placement, and they're wide enough to get around big tires with fenders.

There are the drop bolts, which would lower the attachment point. I think that's the correct term; they're listed in older Campy catalogs, and probably in TA/Universal/Mafac as well. If forced to go that direction, I'd probably bite the bullet and get canti bosses welded on instead, which would be the orthodox touring brake.

Sheldon's got a page on the conversion, and he seemed to think it was no sweat as long as you're using centerpulls. He's also got a recipe for homemade "drop bolt" brackets.

One nice thing about this frame is that it's got a huge amount of clearance - front and back. When I have the 700 wheelset off the International to install 37c tires, I'll throw them into the Bertin and upload a photo, for purposes of scale. In a smaller wheel, I bet I could do 45s.

Posted By: LegislatorPhil CHP pedals are really small, I was disappointed by them when I finally saw them in real life. The SR knockoff of the Berthet is the best version of that pedal for the money hands down, but the white industries looks better.

I actually got a chance to examine a set of CHPs closely when I biked up to West County Cycle Service's open house last month (the owner sold me my Raleigh International frame at the Marin swap last year, and I rode the current build up to show it off). They're a touring-heavy place, and the owner keeps a lot of fetish items in the display case; he had a set of CHPs, and I compared them to the Berthets I had on the Int'l at the time. The Phils are a little wider. The Berthets are teeny for my Size 10, unless I'm wearing skinny oldie lace shoes. When I wear Pumas (my alternate toeclip shoes to my old Sidis), I feel my feet hanging off the pedals. I was hoping to stop in at White Industries (and Bruce Gordon) on the same Petaluma-Sebastopol-Petaluma trip, but both BG and WI are closed on Saturdays. But it turned out I parked right in front of BG's shop, so I'll go back to get advice on mounting his racks.

My impression of the WI pedals from the website specs is they're sized for American feet - you know, normal adult guy feet.

Alloy-railed Ideale 90: That fetishy I'm not. I'd need the special clamp, and I'd have to use the straight post. That's one of my current problems: A stuck seat post that can't be wrenched out by the saddle, because the clamp will just pull off the stuck post. I'd rather use a regular seat post (either the Campy, or a Thomson if the Campy isn't long enough). If you have photos of the round-rail Ideale, I'd like to take a look. And I always have an appetite for TA, at least while I'm waiting for Velo Orange to release their cyclotouriste clone.

What sort of swag are you looking for? Ooooo, I just got four NOS sets of white Velox barplugs with the display card, ooooo....

I have seen a variety of Campy mountain gear in my wanderings. The only bit I currently own is a 1992 Record OR rear derailleur that I bought thinking it was a road derailleur, and then ended up replacing with a Daytona/Centaur on my Fuji. I haven't reconciled myself to letting the OR go, partly because it could be used as a touring derailleur; but things change.

One mountainish thing that I've never seen in the wild is a Campy top-pull front derailleur. They appear in the catalogs, but nobody's selling. Am I missing something? Did late '80s/early '90s mountain bikes use bottom-pull?

I can keep my eyes open. Our local swap season has just started, although many have been badly affected by the Biblical rainstorms.

Most detailed build thread ever! Good job eaglerock!

Internally geared hubs are something I had never considered until my partner expressed interest in building up a mixte with one. I say go for it. Soma sells these STI-looking Nexus-8 shifter sets. They are expensive and maybe not what you are looking for, but check it out:
http://store.somafab.com/ve8alsh.html

Posted By: kirkeSoma sells these STI-looking Nexus-8 shifter sets. They are expensive and maybe not what you are looking for, but check it out:
http://store.somafab.com/ve8alsh.html

Damn, those are butt-ugly! What's curious is that Soma sells the brifters, but they don't sell either the Nexus/Alfine geared hubs, or any wheels built on those hubs.

Personally, I like the barcon thing, especially on a bike with a load. I like being able to shift while holding the bars steady AND while looking forward; I shift using a couple of fingers, adjust as necessary, then slide my hands back up onto the hoods.

Posted By: kirkeButt-ugly is right

I mean, I'm a Campy guy; I think STI brifters (both Shimano and SRAM) are ugly just on general principles. But those things clearly took the "more cowbell" approach to the basic Shimano design.

EDIT: Shit, Jitensha's on semi-vacation until June; they're only open on Saturday. So I have to do the Big Schlep out to Walnut Creek...

Another thought:

Fenders are supposed to fit fairly close to the tires. If you fit 650b wheels (ERTRO 584) into 700c wheelwells (ERTRO 622), that leaves a lot of dead air between. Granted, the tires will be much fatter; I have a 700x38 in the rear triangle now, and there's still a lot of clearance. With 650b, I'm pretty sure I could go to 45, and that will come nearly as high as 700x23. But high enough?

And mounting - if you use 650b fenders, they're designed for 650b framesets. There's no way to mount them in the correct position relative to the wheels, because the fork crown (front)/fender mount (rear) are in the 700c position. If you mount them in the normal 700c position, they won't curve correctly, as the two circles (wheel and fender) won't completely overlap. The wheel may not even clear the fender.

I suppose you could use regular 700c fenders, and just accept whatever dead space you get. Sounds like I'll have to get the fenders for my International sooner rather than later, so I can eyeball the fit on the Bertin with 650s.

Posted By: o0 Corey 0oWouldn't you run into chainstay clearence with 45s?
Also noob question but whats the benifit of running 650b if you can fit 38s easily with 700c already? Also why really would you need to run tires bigger than 38?

1) I don't think so, because the wheel is smaller. Since clearance increases as the chain/seatstays taper out from the seat tube/BB to the dropouts, the smaller the wheel, the bigger the tire you can get into the triangle without hitting the stays.

2) Well, wider = better when it comes to loaded touring and other forms of pissanting heavy objects around. If you take a look at the first photo in my International listing, you'll see a huge rear tire. That's a 700x47; if I could get that inside the brake and get a fender in there, I'd be using a full set on that bike right now.

Think of 650b as a sort of primitive version of mountain bike, with a fake French accent.

As Sheldon sez:

By switching to 650B from 700C, you suddenly gave clearance enough for medium-width tires, say 35-38 mm width, and for fenders, so you don't need to be a "fair-weather" cyclist.

The wider tires will be more durable, more "sure-footed", and give a more comfortable ride on rough pavement or under moderate off-road conditions. Switching to 650B can also reduce front wheel/toe overlap issues.

Switching to 650B will lower the bottom bracket a bit, making for easier mounting/dismounting. (Many newer bikes have excessively high bottom brackets to begin with.)

It also lowers the top tube, possibly making a bike safely usable for a shorter rider than would otherwise fit it, due to lack of standover clearance.

If you are going from a very narrow 622 (700C) tire to a fairly wide 584 (650B), the difference may be minimal. For instance, a 19-622 (700 x 19C) tire would theoretically have exactly the same outside diameter as a 38-584 (650 x 38B).

(my bolding; but Sheldon's talking about diameter, not contact patch)

If 38 is good, why isn't 45 better? And why stop there? Schwalbe makes the Racing Ralph in a 57x584 - 650b x 2.25". That's pretty fat.

If you look at the companies that make touring frames, the frames made for the heaviest-duty touring (Alaska to Tierra del Fuego! Through the Gobi Desert! John o'Groats to Istanbul!) are mountain or 650b frames. Granted, this thing would not be a real 650b bike; but if a conversion counts as a fixed-gear, even though it's not a true track frame, then why not?

Anyway, sometimes you do things not because there's a practical reason/need; sometimes you do things just to see if it's possible. My VooDoo is an example of that; this one's going to be another. As I threatened, if the 650b thing doesn't work, I'm going to turn it into a retrodirect - just to see if I can.

Excellent questions! Being forced to justify your choices is a useful reality check.

Posted By: o0 Corey 0oI once put 26" wheels on an old 27" road frame, and with 2" tires mounted (I could be wrong about that size, but something close) the wheels would not fit

See, now I wouldn't even have thought to try that - not because of tire clearance, but because of brake reach. Long-pull calipers will make it from 27" (ERTRO 630) to 700c (ERTRO 622), and even from 700c to 650b (ERTRO 584), just barely. But from 27" to 26" mountain (ERTRO 559) - that seems like a really long stretch.

But chainstay/seatstay clearance - I think that's really a frame design thing, not a wheel size thing. Some frames are designed with tighter clearances; there are a lot of road frames made these days that actually won't take a tire larger than 700x23 (nothing I own, but anyway...) Surly's cut themselves a little niche with the "Fatties Fit Fine" motto.

The Bertin happens to have a lot of clearance, by almost any standard. I'll take some on-end photos of the fork and the rear triangle to demonstrate. I'm still trying to identify the model, which would give a better idea of what purposes the manufacturer intended for it. But there's not a lot of Bertin info around; Bertin Classic Cycles is about it.