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General: TAX in bikes, what's your take in it?

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorstinky pete
    • CommentTimeJul 20th 2009 edited
     
    http://bikehacks.com/tax-on-bikes-boo/#comments

    I found this on Bike Hacks. I'm sure there are Pro's & Con's to this issue. Let's hear your point of view on it.
  2.  
    :]
  3.  
    That is a terrible argument that indicates that you didn't read the article at all.

    However, I concur. It's asinine. You tax things you want to discourage and then you have to enforce it. Are cops going to stop 5 year olds on bikes? If not, what's the age limit? Are they going to pull kids over, see if they're old enough, then let them go?

    This takes the "sini" in "asinine", leaving "ane", which is French for anus.
  4.  
    no ive read it and understood it and i dont think that bikes should be taxed and its not like cars and all its just all im am saying is sales tax is a bitch too lol
  5.  
    Sales tax is how we pay for our society to run. If the stores you're going to don't charge sales tax, they will go out of business as soon as the IRS for their state catches up with them and charges them their owed taxes.

    Also, if sales tax on a bike is $100 and your local sales tax is 5%, that means your bike cost $10,500. You're not Alberto Contador, are you?

    The salient points about this is that bike use decreases road wear, pollution, and other societal costs.

    But again, unenforceable. So it's moot.
    • CommentAuthorwes m.
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2009 edited
     
    Uh, Im confused. Isn't $100 5% of $2000? 2000 x .05 = 100.

    Also, we arent talking about a sales tax. They are suggesting a fee similar to that of registering your car on top of the already existing sales tax.
  8.  
    head is dangling
    • CommentAuthorgiosSR215
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2009
     
    I guess that would be good for bike theft purposes...but other then that, bikes do not cause emissions or anything like that. so I don't see why we should have to pay taxes when we aren't taxing the environment.
    • CommentAuthorOtto Rax
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2009
     
    a tax ON bikes, I kind of get it. They can eat a dick before I pay more taxes on something like a bike, and they can eat 2 testes before i put a sticker on it saying it's been paid. ridiculous, and it will never pass anywhere
    • CommentAuthorgreg
    • CommentTimeJul 21st 2009
     
    If the money goes to improving bicycling infrastructure I'm all for it. The secondary economy is where we buy and sell stuff anyways, the people paying the taxes on bikes would be the people buying new in stores. We need money to fund improvements to roads for bicyclists and this could be a great way to get money for that
  12.  
    My arithmetic is blow. Yes, $2000. Well, $2100 with taxes. So, yeah, you can pay that much in sales tax on a $2k bike, but if you can afford a $2k bike, you'd damn well better be paying for your state's schools.

    and it will never pass anywhere


    Well, it's unenforceable, which means that cops will roundly ignore it. They have better things to do. The issue is when it gets enforced selectively, which means a challenge on constitutional grounds. That's what we call NOT WORTH IT.

    This becomes a good idea at the moment when there are so many bicycles that they outnumber cars 10:1 at every moment on roads. With my bike, I weigh some 198 lbs. A dude in a car weighs ten times as much and wears the road similarly, taking up ten times the space, burning far, far more energy. When bikes start to represent a burden rather than relief, this will make sense.
  13.  
    fuck that shit, tax my bike? they have enough unhealthy people as it is, I guess that's one less exercise. They can only tax the bike if they see it as a legit form of transportation where it is respected by drivers and motorcyclists and allowed on the road, if not it's the same as taxing a tennis racquet. cycling is only an exercise or sport in America. With obesity on a rise, we don't need one less incentive not to exercise
    • CommentAuthorAaron C
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2009
     
    Posted By: lickedwickedfuck that shit, tax my bike?


    wait, you must not have read the whole article. it was only referring to single speeds trying to copy fix gear steez by only riding with a front brake.
  15.  


    Maybe if it was applied at the time of sale. But there's *no way* cops would see it as worth their while unless they picked out particular people to check — say, particular ethnic or socioeconomic backgrounds outside of their home neighborhoods. That's why enforcability is an issue for laws.

    Frankly, I think cars should be taxed to pay for bike and pedestrian infrastructure. It's an incentive, a larger population (so the taxes on individuals would be smaller), it weighs toward higher income brackets, and it taxes those who use infrastructure the most. It could be part of property taxes. Since they pay for schools and sidewalks in most districts, it's not unreasonable they could pay for bike lanes, yield signs, and the like.
    • CommentAuthorRuffinit
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2009
     
    Okay, well here goes.. Let me see if I can get this down the way my mind bends... First off you have to remember that Washington is a cycling mecca. At last count there are only ~50 miles of roads in the state that cyclists are restricted from. LOTS of bikes and riders. Even there where for the most part bikes are looked upon as a vehicle and subject to the same laws, you have the cagers that spout the "they don't pay taxes (fuel) so they shouldn't be on the road" dogma. Now most of you know that a great deal of revenue for the streets and roads come from fuel taxes which create and maintain those same roads and streets. IF you were only a cyclist (don't drive or own a car) you could be seen as a freeloader, using the roads that the automobiles have paid for. Now wait.... The roads were created for the automobiles by the automobile society. Those that use more fuel pay more road taxes, mostly by way of fuel tax. If it were up to the bicycling society, we wouldn't have such nice, clean, paved roads. We couldn't afford it. So, like it or not we ride these nice roads BECAUSE of the automobile. The bikeways/paths, whatever are not even paid for by cyclists, they're paid for by very generous donations mostly for recreation (not commuting).

    So, I guess I'm saying that we SHOULD pay a tax because it would give us the legitimacy of owning a piece of the road.

    Hit me back..
    • CommentAuthorj-dogg
    • CommentTimeJul 22nd 2009
     
    It will never pass.

    I was joking about this the other day, which is ironic.

    "Next thing you know I'll get taxed for riding my bicycle" referring to Obama's Cap and Trade program. Looks like I may have spoke too soon.

    That is how recession / depression always works. The lower and middle class always get the shaft in the form of higher taxes and fees on everything.
  18.  
    Posted By: Aaron C
    Posted By: lickedwickedfuck that shit, tax my bike?


    wait, you must not have read the whole article. it was only referring to single speeds trying to copy fix gear steez by only riding with a front brake.


    i remember correctly and i think it's you who doesn't, but the article talked about this licensing for bikes.
    • CommentAuthorjerereremy
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2009
     
    Posted By: RuffinitOkay, well here goes.. Let me see if I can get this down the way my mind bends... First off you have to remember that Washington is a cycling mecca. At last count there are only ~50 miles of roads in the state that cyclists are restricted from. LOTS of bikes and riders. Even there where for the most part bikes are looked upon as a vehicle and subject to the same laws, you have the cagers that spout the "they don't pay taxes (fuel) so they shouldn't be on the road" dogma. Now most of you know that a great deal of revenue for the streets and roads come from fuel taxes which create and maintain those same roads and streets. IF you were only a cyclist (don't drive or own a car) you could be seen as a freeloader, using the roads that the automobiles have paid for. Now wait.... The roads were created for the automobiles by the automobile society. Those that use more fuel pay more road taxes, mostly by way of fuel tax. If it were up to the bicycling society, we wouldn't have such nice, clean, paved roads. We couldn't afford it. So, like it or not we ride these nice roads BECAUSE of the automobile. The bikeways/paths, whatever are not even paid for by cyclists, they're paid for by very generous donations mostly for recreation (not commuting).

    So, I guess I'm saying that we SHOULD pay a tax because it would give us the legitimacy of owning a piece of the road.

    Hit me back..


    that would be a beautiful argument if drivers were even cognizant of the fact that we're ALL supposed to be sharing the road.

    actually, no. the argument would still be pretty base and verges on classism (really, those who don't drive or own cars seen as freeloaders?)
  20.  
    The roads were made for humans, cows, horses, carriages of various sorts, and then bicycles. Eventually, there were cars.

    How about this: we figure out the wear bicycles put on road infrastructure, then calculate a tax appropriately and proportionately. Then we figure out if it would earn more than the overhead costs of instituting such a tax and see if it's less or more than the tax that would be gained.

    My guess is, they'd be asking you to pax six bucks a year and it would cost them seven to collect it.
    • CommentAuthorcarlcastro
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2009
     
    Anyone know if I'll be charged customs tax on a frameset from Japan and arriving in SF?
    • CommentAuthorRuffinit
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2009
     
    Yeah, I know in a perfect world etc, etc..
    Josh, I'm speaking of the modern roads that we all enjoy. Humans, cows, horses don't need roads and barely paths. Try to drive a car off the pavement and you'll soon find out why we spend so much money on nice roads. If I had my way about it, I'd remove Semis from normal highways and get back to rails for cargo. I of course live on 1.5 miles of gravel road so to get to the nice paved stuff is a pain if it's either a) raining b) snowing c) new gravel d) potholed (it's always a combination of the above)
    If you've ever subjected yourself to gravel on a bike especially with 125psi 19mm tires, you know what I mean.. The mtb isn't bad, but once you get on the pavement it's out of it's environment just as a car is off-road.
    • CommentAuthorRuffinit
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2009
     
    Posted By: lickedwicked
    Posted By: Aaron C
    Posted By: lickedwickedfuck that shit, tax my bike?


    wait, you must not have read the whole article. it was only referring to single speeds trying to copy fix gear steez by only riding with a front brake.


    i remember correctly and i think it's you who doesn't, but the article talked about this licensing for bikes.

    Licked, dude... He's got your number
    • CommentAuthorjerereremy
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2009
     
    Posted By: RuffinitYeah, I know in a perfect world etc, etc..
    Josh, I'm speaking of the modern roads that we all enjoy. Humans, cows, horses don't need roads and barely paths. Try to drive a car off the pavement and you'll soon find out why we spend so much money on nice roads. If I had my way about it, I'd remove Semis from normal highways and get back to rails for cargo. I of course live on 1.5 miles of gravel road so to get to the nice paved stuff is a pain if it's either a) raining b) snowing c) new gravel d) potholed (it's always a combination of the above)
    If you've ever subjected yourself to gravel on a bike especially with 125psi 19mm tires, you know what I mean.. The mtb isn't bad, but once you get on the pavement it's out of it's environment just as a car is off-road.


    has it explicitly been said that funds from the tax will go directly towards road maintenance/development? if not, you may wanna wait to cast such a strong opinion for it.

    and there are tons of different sized tires and strong rims on the market. enough, to not have to ride with 125psi/19mm tires on crummy roads, unless you really want to.
  25.  
    Posted By: Ruffinit
    Posted By: lickedwicked
    Posted By: Aaron C
    Posted By: lickedwickedfuck that shit, tax my bike?


    wait, you must not have read the whole article. it was only referring to single speeds trying to copy fix gear steez by only riding with a front brake.


    i remember correctly and i think it's you who doesn't, but the article talked about this licensing for bikes.

    Licked, dude... He's got your number
    what does that mean?
  26.  
    Posted By: gregIf the money goes to improving bicycling infrastructure I'm all for it. The secondary economy is where we buy and sell stuff anyways, the people paying the taxes on bikes would be the people buying new in stores. We need money to fund improvements to roads for bicyclists and this could be a great way to get money for that


    Naw man naw other way around. Tax carbon emitting vehicles higher to pay for non / low emitting vehicle usage. Hell cyclists and public transportation commuters should earn a tax CREDIT for not driving. I say tax the living shit out of cars and get this alternative transportation thing moving already!

    That and hook up nice solar panels to everyone's roof like they're doing in Germany right now. :)
    • CommentAuthorwes m.
    • CommentTimeJul 23rd 2009
     
    Yeah, carbon permits. That way I can sell the carbon I save by riding and buy new bike stuff.
    • CommentAuthortjchad
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2009
     
    Just wait til you have to let them shove a tube up your A$$ every other year to check your emissions...
    • CommentAuthortjchad
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2009
     
    Posted By: Aaron C
    Posted By: lickedwickedfuck that shit, tax my bike?


    wait, you must not have read the whole article. it was only referring to single speeds trying to copy fix gear steez by only riding with a front brake.


    NICE!!!!
    • CommentAuthorRuffinit
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2009
     
    has it explicitly been said that funds from the tax will go directly towards road maintenance/development? if not, you may wanna wait to cast such a strong opinion for it.

    and there are tons of different sized tires and strong rims on the market. enough, to not have to ride with 125psi/19mm tires on crummy roads, unless you really want to.

    Oh, I've got plenty of strong opinions, but no, they're just blowing in the wind right now and like plenty of others have already said, this would be near impossible to enforce.. I'm mainly looking at it from a different experienced perspective.
    Take a peek at my stable, you'll find that I have anything I need to ride; crit, road, touring, cyclo, mtb.. I know that there are plenty of other rims and tires, but when I want to ride my road or crit frames, I still have to get them to the pavement which is a mile and a half unless I want to haul them, but that's really defeating the purpose...
    • CommentAuthorRuffinit
    • CommentTimeJul 24th 2009
     
    When you all are spouting the "Tax the hell out of the carbon burners" please remember that there are those of us outside of urban areas (WAY outside) that by making us pay that tax limits us to what we would be able to do. I have 6 neighbors within a 30 sq mile area. It takes 7 miles before you even get to a town and it's 70 miles each way to work for me. I am not the exception. Look at Montana for instance. Think outside of your urban jungles. Cars are really NOT an option but a necessity especially in the winter and spring.
    Also remember that when you are creating these taxes, unless something drastically changes (rails), trucks burning diesel still deliver it. If their costs increase so do everybody else's.
    • CommentAuthorCarley P.
    • CommentTimeJul 25th 2009
     
    That article is terrible. The writer barely explained the issue, and he spent most of his time shooting out arguments that don't even make sense.

    I'm a Libertarian; I think practically all taxes are bad. The thought that bikes should be licensed is ridiculous. I would say that cars and pets are licensed because they're both dangerous. If I'm attacked by a dog, or hit by a car, I need to know who owns the car or the dog. Bikes aren't dangerous to others at all, really.

    The only explanation the person could come up with the idea was "We're forced to license everything else, why not bikes?" Get serious, and get a real argument, Mr. Stuart!

    To all of you: A number of you have mentioned the fact that cars omit gasses and bikes don't. What does this have to do with anything? I wouldn't say we license our cars because they're bad for the environment. The two things aren't related to each other at all, that I know of.
    • CommentAuthorwes m.
    • CommentTimeJul 25th 2009 edited
     
    People are mentioning the environment because they are making the point that drivers/cyclists should pay a fee that is equivalent to the damage they cause, not that car registration fees actually go to repairing the environment. Ideally people would be forced to pay the full cost for their cars (or anything for that matter), meaning that they should not only pay for the car and gas but also to clean the pollution emitted by the car. A 6.7 billionth of the earth belongs to me, if you pollute my 6.7 billionth you need to pay up.

    Also, that thing was more of a blog than a newsworthy article so you should expect it to consist of a guy rambling about a newsworthy article he read somewhere else.
    • CommentAuthorjerereremy
    • CommentTimeJul 25th 2009 edited
     
    Posted By: Carley P.To all of you: A number of you have mentioned the fact that cars omit gasses and bikes don't. What does this have to do with anything? I wouldn't say we license our cars because they're bad for the environment. The two things aren't related to each other at all, that I know of.


    cars may not be taxed in excess if they're more demanding in terms of gas or stress on the environment (i could be wrong, but i don't have many conversations with H3 owners), but if i recall correctly, owners of hybrid cars get a tax break b/c of the environmental benefits. if that's the case, why not riders?
    • CommentAuthorCarley P.
    • CommentTimeJul 25th 2009
     
    Posted By: wes m.People are mentioning the environment because they are making the point that drivers/cyclists should pay a fee that is equivalent to the damage they cause, not that car registration fees actually go to repairing the environment. Ideally people would be forced to pay the full cost for their cars (or anything for that matter), meaning that they should not only pay for the car and gas but also to clean the pollution emitted by the car. A 6.7 billionth of the earth belongs to me, if you pollute my 6.7 billionth you need to pay up.

    Also, that thing was more of a blog than a newsworthy article so you should expect it to consist of a guy rambling about a newsworthy article he read somewhere else.


    That makes more sense. Even still, I'm not sure if it makes complete sense. I mean, people who drive Hummers are certainly hurting the environment, but it's not like we can say "give us three hundred dollars and we'll neutralize those gasses!"



    Posted By: jerereremy

    cars may not be taxed in excess if they're more demanding in terms of gas or stress on the environment (i could be wrong, but i don't have many conversations with H3 owners), but if i recall correctly, owners of hybrid cars get a tax break b/c of the environmental benefits. if that's the case, why not riders?


    Really? I've never heard that hybrid drivers get tax breaks. I can see your point.
  36.  
    Car taxes go toward the infrastructure they require and use up. It turns out, a big part of that infrastructure that they require and use up is clean water and air, as well as roads.
  37.  
    I wouldn’t mind paying a yearly “Tax” in the form of a clearly visible registration decal for my bike, PROVIDED I would benefit form such a Tax in the form equal use AND respect while riding on any road. No decal would mean “get your ass on the shoulder or the side walk”, simple as that.
    I know there are laws for cyclists, but we’re just treated as less than second class users really. So many cars, trucks, pedestrians & cops treat us as mere parasites, only getting in the way & “impeding the flow of traffic”. I say F-you! I AM traffic!

    If such a “Tax” would guarantee me the right half of a traffic lane (NOT the shoulder of the road) with a 3-foot clearance from other vehicles, I’d gladly pay a reasonable fee in proportion to my road usage.

    Anyone who has lived in Europe can see what cycling should be in the US, & unless I’m mistaken, they do it largely without a “Bike Tax”...
  38.  
    this gave me a thought maybe since our bike are registered would there be less bikes stolen?
    this just popped in my head but i can be wrong
    i am just saying
  39.  
    Benson, the catch with that is that the police, who don't as a rule care about stolen bikes, have to recover it for registration to matter.

    My guess is that crappy *Mart bikes all look the same and would never be recovered. Custom, high-end bikes would be immediately dismantled at a chop shop. Does anyone have statistics or even anecdotes? Google doesn't seem to think that anyone has figured out if bike registration deters theft or gets bikes returned.

    Pete, MA law is that a bicyclist is allowed to take as much road as the cyclist deems safe. That means that I ride far enough into the road to not go over drain grills or get doored. In one nasty stretch of road, I need to ride in the very center because of deep potholes everywhere else. A couple of weeks back, someone got the gift of a finger when they honked at me as I was going through that stretch. "Improper use of a horn" is a citable offense here. I'm certainly not riding over the potholes while that lady rushes home beside me. I'll end up under her rush hour wheels.

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