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    • CommentAuthorjunk4cash69
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2011 edited
    Picked up a Ciocc frame set the other day and am trying to get a round about date. Has campy drop outs and does not have a brazed on front derailleur. Has the clover cut out on the bottom bracket. Any help is greatly appreciated. Just curious what I have here. Thanx guys!

    I've always had good luck contacting the original factory when I had questions like these...
    • CommentAuthorstalag13
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2011 edited
    The decals and pantographing are just like a Designer 84 I picked recently, but minus the chromed chainstay, fork and dropouts. They went to shorter lugs later on I think, after Pelizolli left.
    • CommentAuthoreaglerock
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2011
    Is the stripe at the bottom of that Columbus decal black or blue? I don't think I've ever seen it in blue, but that may just be a photographic reflection off the paint.

    One way to set an earliest possible date is to check the World Championship decal. The UCI World Championship has been at Nürburgring Germany/West Germany in 1927, 1966 and 1978; the championship was at San Cristóbal Venezuela in 1977. So you know the earliest the frame can be is September 1978 (the championship was on August 27, 1978).

    Top of top tube braze-on cable stops and shifter bosses tend to be late '70s, rather than earlier. You don't show the drive side; is there a braze-on mount for the front derailleur?

    Very spiffy color.
    No braze on and no date on the decal.
    • CommentAuthoreaglerock
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2011 edited
    Posted By: junk4cash69No braze on and no date on the decal.

    Sure, there's a 'date' on the WC decal; it tells you which two championships Ciöcc placed on the podium - 1977 (San Cristóbal) and 1978 (Nürburgring). That means the decal can't have been produced before the Nürburgring championship finished. All it takes is a little sleuthing to find out when that was.

    This doesn't tell you the latest date the frame could have been painted/decalled, but the lack of an FD braze-on suggests that it's early '80s at the latest. By the mid-'80s (84-86, say), brazed-on front derailleur hangers were the rule. I think you're looking at a date from 1979 to 1984, give or take.

    With that in mind, here's a link to a site which has scans of Ciöcc catalogs from (I think) early 1978 (post-San Cristóbal, pre-Nürburgring; if you'd finished on the podium for a championship, your advertising would say so) and 1984:

    Rear dropout spacing is another thing. 5-speed (1960s-early 1970s) bikes were 120mm between the dropouts; 6/7-speed bikes (late 1970s-early 1990s) bikes were 126mm; 8-speed and greater (early 1990s-now) are 130mm. This is not absolute; some companies widened the dropouts earlier, and some later. But they had to change when hubs changed, or they wouldn't be able to get hubs that fit their frames. Many older frames have been cold-set wider to fit newer hubs, but the dropout spacing may be another date clue. My guess is that if it isn't 126mm, it's because a previous owner has had it cold-set it to 130.

    The particular type of Columbus tubing is also a dating/model clue; it's probably either SL or SLX. We'll get into that later.
    • CommentAuthorjunk4cash69
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2011 edited
    Thank you all for the inpu. Ok so the rear dropout spacing is 126mm. And as you can see, the Columbus tubing decal is mostly missing so I can't tell for sure if it's SL or SLX. I'm not trying to be too picky and get a month/year it was made, I was just trying to figure out if it's early mid or late 1980s. Does the head tube logo tell us anything about year range? Thank you again everyone. I'm new to the site and am on daily reading and viewing classic bikes.
    SLX may be identified by sticking your finger in the BB shell into the seat tube. If you feel ribs on the surface of the tube wall, it's SLX (just be careful as there's often sharp bits of brazing brass that could cut your finger open.) These serve to stiffen the BB area, and proved more responsiveness that SL.
    • CommentAuthoreaglerock
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2011
    Posted By: junk4cash69Does the head tube logo tell us anything about year range?

    It probably does, but I don't have enough Ciöcc info to say anything for certain. Ciöcc has another headtube decal/badge: A four-suit cluster (spade-heart-diamond-club, as in playing cards; "ciöcc" is local dialect for "poker faced" in the area of Bergamo, near Milan, where Ciöcc is headquartered).

    They also typically have the four-aces logo pantographed on the fork crowns. You might want to keep your eyes open for a nicey-nice Italian 1" threaded fork; another Ciöcc will be hard to find, although you might be able to buy something appropriate direct from the factory.

    VS members j-dogg and sfbee documented a fair bit of the restoration of a pair of early '80s Ciöccs a few years back. I don't know how often either of them are checking in these days; I haven't seen either of them posting in the forum for awhile. But they might be able to give you some useful info.
    • CommentAuthorduende108
    • CommentTimeSep 8th 2011
    That's a strange one. The Columbus decal is definitely SL not SLX. Which puts it in the earlier half the eighty's. Also, on the rear Gipiemme triangle, it has the US importer stamp.

    The thing that throws me off is the lack of braze on for a front derailuer. As I have a San Cristobal and had a World 77.. both from the early '80's, and both had FR Derailuer braze-ons

    I've seen a few others online that look VERY similar to this one though. Although I never knew they existed until recently As back in the 80's when I worked at a bike shop, the only CIocc colors I ever saw were the Dark (almost black) blue, the gun metal grey, white, and red.

    I've also heard mention that their are fake Ciocc's out there. Don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard it nonetheless. Not suggesting this one is fake btw... just would also like to know more about them, as I'm a huge CIOCC fan.

    Good luck.
    Oh, and I have the original fork :) Sorry, I just don't have a headset yet to hold it on while in the stand. Ok so yes the tubing is SL since there are no ribs felt on the inside. The forks are pantographed and have Brev Campagnolo markings.

    Also, can anyone tell me what size bottom bracket I need? and what size front derailleur clamp? Thank you.
    • CommentAuthoreaglerock
    • CommentTimeSep 9th 2011
    Posted By: junk4cash69Also, can anyone tell me what size bottom bracket I need? and what size front derailleur clamp? Thank you.

    front derailleur clamp is easy: 28.6mm. It's a standard steel frame; pretty much all the road front derailleurs that weren't French used 28.6mm. Campagnolo Nuovo Record, Super Record or Gran Sport would be typical, and all the other manufacturers imitated Campy.

    Bottom bracket...that will depend on what crankset you use; different cranksets require different spindle lengths to get the correct chain distance from the frame (AKA "chainline"). Singlespeed/track cranks, double ring road cranks, triple ring mountain/touring cranks require spindles of different lengths, to make room for the chainwheels. I'm pretty sure it will be an Italian-threaded bottom bracket (70mm wide BB shell, 36x24 cups).

    If you figure out what crankset you want, or even what you're going to use the bike for (road? street? schweet f1xie? etc.), we'll be abe to offer more suggestions about bottom brackets.
    I sent photos of my bike to the Ciocc factory in Italy and finally heard back.

    "Dear Thom,

    I showed the photos to Giovanni, he said to have built that frame with his hands, around 81' or 1982', the tubes used depending on the sizes, he said looking seems more than 56 size, so it has SLX tubes, or if it' s would be low than 56 size the tubes are SL. Your frame has the aerodynamic crown fork, you can see the not perfectly flat crown fork, built to " cut the air " during the ride."

    Do you need others informations?

    Best regards

    Alessandro Caccia
    Pelizzoli Team
    • CommentAuthormpnielsen
    • CommentTimeSep 14th 2011
    That is pretty awesome.
    • CommentAuthorduende108
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2011

    Now I want to send him pics of my bike too to find out more.

    So with this info, it appears that the SLX Columbus sticker (red outline/accents) wasn't really used until later on. Good to know. Thanks for posting
    Im still scratching my head though. I felt inside the bb tubing and I felt no ribs. I'm guessing even though the frame is a 58cm, it's just SL tubing.
    • CommentAuthorduende108
    • CommentTimeSep 19th 2011
    Posted By: junk4cash69Im still scratching my head though. I felt inside the bb tubing and I felt no ribs. I'm guessing even though the frame is a 58cm, it's just SL tubing.

    Yeah... to be honest it doesn't make sense really to me either. I have a 58 that is definitely not SLX. And like I said earlier... It wasn't until the late '80s that you started seeing SLX tubing replacing SL. At least that was my experience. All the Guerciotti's, Colnago's, DeRosa's.. any Italian frame... you name it. They all started switching over to SLX from SL in the later 80's.
    Well, she's all done! I love the way the Ciocc turned out and it rides like a dream. I'm doing 35 miles in the Tour De BBQ on Oct 1st and can't wait now. Thank you to everyone that had some input on this post.

    • CommentAuthorCeya
    • CommentTimeSep 24th 2011
    yep that around 1982 not that many brazed front derailleurs frames at that time by 84 a different story.


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