General: A LBS rant...

Well, what do you expect them to do? Like you said, they cant carry every component considering how many are in production nowadays. If a shop sells nitto bars just imagine how much space it would take to stock one of each bar in each size. They cant match the online price because they are an actual shop not a warehouse. They should be friendly and know their shit. I'll give you that much. Outside of being friendly, knowledgeable, and fitting whatever they can into the limited shop space there isnt anything else they can do.

Posted By: suicide_doorsI would be pissed off too if a customer was asking me to sell shit at cost simply because I didn't stock it.

not unless online price or price matched was higher and you'd make a profit. even if you can make an even trade with no profit gains you still tax them and can write it off on the income tax.

but $40 shoes are a lot easier to sell than a $200 saddle.

Posted By: the rabbibut $40 shoes are a lot easier to sell than a $200 saddle.

And given that Converse is a big company, while all saddle makers are small comapnies, the shoe dealer is much more likely to get a full manufacturer's refund on inventory of the "colorways" that the much-larger universe of All-Star consumers deem unwearably ugly.

its all about balence. you have to make sure you have enough new stuff to keep people intersted and still stock the old or unthought of stuff people need a shop to have.

Posted By: stinky petePerhaps I expect too much; be it my age of 45 years, or it being “just how things are these days”, but I am a bit put out with my local bike shops. Case in point, I’m looking for a new replacement saddle, so I go the manufactures website & find two LBS’s listed as dealers & pay them a visit. I ask to see one of these products because I’m one of those people who likes to see an item I’m going to be dropping some cash on first hand. The guy tells me “we can order you one”. Strike one LBS brand name dealer. I tell the guy that I am trying to keep my business local, that if I wanted to get a great price on a particular bike part or accessory I could easily have found it on line, likely with free shipping as well. I then ask him that if I order through his shop will he mach a price online? He asks me if the online place has it in stock. I ask him what difference it makes since he doesn’t have the same item in stock either. As you can imagine, this guy is getting a little unhappy about now, which is my point folks. This happened at both “authorized dealers” I just drove out of my way to spend my money at. This isn’t an isolated instance. Time after time my LBS’s don’t have what I need, be it a particular common brake pad, bar grip, bar plug, brake or shifting cable, inertubes, pedals, size clothing, glove or cycling shoe.
Look, I know that each LBS I frequent doesn’t have the resources to carry the stock for every possible need that wanders in through the door, particularly these days, but come on guys! I’m spending extra so that you’ll be there in business when I need you! If you’re going to just order it online from your distributor then mark it up 20% to pay your rent I might as well eliminate the middle man & order it myself.
Attitude is another thing; one shop I no longer frequent has a guy that seems to know more about skateboards than bikes. Heck, I have even taught HIM things when I’m looking for something in particular. One time I found an accessory on the wall he didn’t know he had, let alone what it was used for...

The bottom line is as the one spending the money, I expect any business I visit to cater to my needs in a professional & helpful way. If they don’t know the answer or have the part please, direct me to a source that does without a bunch of crappy excuses or attitude. If a LBS isn’t helpful time after time, I stop going there. If enough people do this, then the LBS goes out of business. Please LBS workers & owners, remember this. You just may save your own job in doing so.

Any one with info to a LBS deserving of my business in south east Michigan would be welcome...


Thanks for letting me vent.



PS. I’ll most likely be buying my saddle online from:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/index.html (Because they have been such a wealth of information over the years)
OR
http://www.universalcycles.com/

Sorry about that bottom line, double entendre at the end of the response!

pete i hope you didn't get too much attitude from great lakes (feel free to pm me with damaging detail, if necessary). i go way back with the shop, i think my first schwinn bantam came from kiddie korner around 1966, and my older son has worked there for several years while not in school, so i have become one of the family. i don't go anywhere else. the owner is a totally straight-up guy, but he really doesn't want to compete with the internet. i think he takes the view that wanting to support your local shop, but expecting them to match online prices is trying to have it both ways. he would prefer you to cut out the middleman for the kinds of things that aren't in stock, and to use his shop for the things you can't get online, like a bike that fits, or repairs that last. and wheels: if you ever need a wheel built that is the place to go. i have been pounding these wheels for years commuting here, and they haven't even needed to be trued once.

that said i was a little disappointed when i went in to get tubes the other day and the shortest presta stems they had were 48 mm. it must be all those deep vs everybody's riding these days.

damned kids, their rims are too deep and their bars are too narrow! and don't get me started on their pants!

Posted By: jaguardatsunsI have to agree with some of the people who responded. Tell you what though. Don't take any reviews as gospel when it comes to your ass, and any real bike person will tell you what they have gone through to find the 'right' saddle. Unless you have ridden on that dream saddle for a half hour or more, you have no idea what it will be like, and if it is expensive, it will be all that more painful (sorry for that one), but really, go to the nice local bike shops, and sit on a few bikes. Go ahead and adjust the height and keep trying. Find a nice one? Great, ask for a ride around the block. You will get it, no problem. You are old enough and everyone knows older people have money! You are not likely to plunk money down on a nice sport coat without trying it on, same goes for stuff like this. Bottom line: it has to fit you and not hurt.

Bottom line is that they have to have one before I can try one out. There policy, as I understand it, is that if you order something specific, you are expected to buy it. I think that is a bunch of crap if they are supposed to be an authorized dealer...

Posted By: cicadashellpete i hope you didn't get too much attitude from great lakes (feel free to pm me with damaging detail, if necessary). i go way back with the shop, i think my first schwinn bantam came from kiddie korner around 1966, and my older son has worked there for several years while not in school, so i have become one of the family. i don't go anywhere else. the owner is a totally straight-up guy, but he really doesn't want to compete with the internet. i think he takes the view that wanting to support your local shop, but expecting them to match online prices is trying to have it both ways. he would prefer you to cut out the middleman for the kinds of things that aren't in stock, and to use his shop for the things you can't get online, like a bike that fits, or repairs that last. and wheels: if you ever need a wheel built that is the place to go. i have been pounding these wheels for years commuting here, and they haven't even needed to be trued once.

that said i was a little disappointed when i went in to get tubes the other day and the shortest presta stems they had were 48 mm. it must be all those deep vs everybody's riding these days.

Thanks for the encouraging words. I’ve been going to them since they were down in there three story place near down town.
I went to Great Lakes the day after visiting Two Wheel Tango over on Jackson Ave. I am sorry to say that T.W.T. seemed to set the mood for my rant in so much as they seemed far less helpful on this matter, in my opinion. However, they were willing to mach the online price I showed them, “but only this once” while Great Lakes said flat out that they would not.
Neither Brooks dealer seemed to have one thing with Brooks stamped on it displayed or for sale. (T.W.T had another model Brooks saddle on a new bike I could buy if I bought the bike it was attached to) At no time did either Brooks dealer say “how about we get one of the models you’re looking for Sir & give you a call when it comes in so you can come take a look at it?” Had this been the case I likely would have had cash in pocket when I showed up to see it, & they would have made a sale.
As it is now, I just put on a “take off” townie saddle I picked up for 10 bucks, & it’s working just fine till I find a real replacement.

I count 7 shops I go to with my bike needs. The fact is that if they don’t make a sale when I come through the doors, I leave without spending my money in them...

Here’s another one.
Today my father-in-law called up to help him find a seat cover to go on his stationary bike. I told him to take the seat off so we could make sure if we found one that it would fit. First stop was at the hardware store in the next town where they carry the same line of Bell bike stuff that Walmart has, only at even lower prices. No luck, as they had covers for narrower seats, but not for the cruiser wide kind. I hadn’t really expected it to be that easy, but it was along the way & while I was there I resupplied my personal stock of 20” tubes. ($2.74 each as apposed to over $5.00 each at my next stop)
Next stop was the little Mom & Pop LBS & locksmith. Nice folks with a little shop that always seems to have a customer. They sell name brand bikes & accessories, even Rans recumbents too.
I tell them what we’re looking for & right away they say we don’t have anything like that. So I reach out to them and ask if there suppliers have anything that they could maybe order for us? I’m told that there two suppliers carry a lot of stuff, but just no saddle covers wider than a normal road bike seat. They then offer us a tractor sized seat with enough silicone in it to make even me look good, at a mere $60.00!
Sorry guys, not any time soon when I have seen in the past what I need in a simple cover at around $24.00. We respectfully decline there offer after they admit that it was an item they ordered by mistake & instead inquire into some cheaply priced grips for a kids bike I’ve built up for donation for any kid less fortunate these days. “Cheapest we got are these $12.00 ones”. How about a 26.2 size micro adjust seat post? Or an 18mm Park cone wrench? “No & no, but we can order the last two...”
I didn’t even go into my thing about “we can order one” with them.
We thanked them for there time and left without spending a cent. There are other LBS’s around I can hope for a better performance at should I like to visit them all & spend the time to do so. Perhaps I should call first?
Or, perhaps I’ll look online...

Posted By: suicide_doorsI think it's just Michigan. Or do you go into the shop wearing a clown suit? Or are you exposing yourself unintentionally? IT HAS TO BE SOMETHING!

Seriously. Performance bikes is the only shop I have been to that fails as often as the bike shops that stinky pete goes to. Pete, are you the only person who rides bikes in your county?

Probably not. But you could always try.

Ordered my Brooks saddle today (http://www.rei.com/product/784769) & because of REI’s return policy for members, I can return it if I don’t like it at anytime. THAT was the reason I spent my money at REI instead of at one of the IBD’s in the area.
Sorry authorized Brooks’ dealers in my area, but you had your chance when I first went shopping for a Brooks, & you both blew it…

Over the years I have frequented many a LBS. In the beginning when I did not know much, almost everyone at the LBS knew more than I and was almost always helpful. I didn't know what I wanted or what it looked like or even what the options were and my LBS was the place to go to find out. I brought my rust heap in for a tune up and the service was great. Later on I knew a little more. Sometimes the LBS had what I wanted and other times they didn't and they could special order it. The staff got to know me and would often waive the deposit and my tastes were mainstream enough that it was not a big deal if I decided not to buy an item. I tuned up my own bicycles and occasionally had a wheel built or a headset replaced at the LBS. Now I'm a freak. I trawl the internet for deals and vintage parts. I have most of the tools a bike mechanic needs and I build my own wheels. The staff at my LBS has turned around many times over and I hardly know anyone there anymore. I often know more than they do and the questions I have are mostly answered on forums online. But even still I have a special fondness for my LBS. I remember walking in there and being welcomed that first time. I remember asking a hundred idiotic questions and not buying anything. I remember spending a lot more than I needed to. I remember the grouchy overworked mechanic who wouldn't give me the time of day in the beginning, stay an extra half hour past closing to to fix my brakes so I could get home safe.
We have to admit that these days we are are a little spoiled. We know every part number and variation, prices from around the world and we want a custom build and parts even before we can tune up a bicycle. Can a 'local' shop have every part? Of course not. Can they special order it? Probably. Can they special order it so you can touch it and not buy it? Maybe, maybe not. Can they guarantee the lowest price? Probably not. But they can serve a lot of folks over the course of each day and keep many bikes running smoothly. It may be hard to believe (!) but most people are not wannabe mechanics or custom parts geeks and for them crazy folks, just like me not too long ago, there is no place like the LBS.

Posted By: dNOver the years I have frequented many a LBS. In the beginning when I did not know much, almost everyone at the LBS knew more than I and was almost always helpful. I didn't know what I wanted or what it looked like or even what the options were and my LBS was the place to go to find out. I brought my rust heap in for a tune up and the service was great. Later on I knew a little more. Sometimes the LBS had what I wanted and other times they didn't and they could special order it. The staff got to know me and would often waive the deposit and my tastes were mainstream enough that it was not a big deal if I decided not to buy an item. I tuned up my own bicycles and occasionally had a wheel built or a headset replaced at the LBS. Now I'm a freak. I trawl the internet for deals and vintage parts. I have most of the tools a bike mechanic needs and I build my own wheels. The staff at my LBS has turned around many times over and I hardly know anyone there anymore. I often know more than they do and the questions I have are mostly answered on forums online. But even still I have a special fondness for my LBS. I remember walking in there and being welcomed that first time. I remember asking a hundred idiotic questions and not buying anything. I remember spending a lot more than I needed to. I remember the grouchy overworked mechanic who wouldn't give me the time of day in the beginning, stay an extra half hour past closing to to fix my brakes so I could get home safe.
We have to admit that these days we are are a little spoiled. We know every part number and variation, prices from around the world and we want a custom build and parts even before we can tune up a bicycle. Can a 'local' shop have every part? Of course not. Can they special order it? Probably. Can they special order it so you can touch it and not buy it? Maybe, maybe not. Can they guarantee the lowest price? Probably not. But they can serve a lot of folks over the course of each day and keep many bikes running smoothly. It may be hard to believe (!) but most people are not wannabe mechanics or custom parts geeks and for them crazy folks, just like me not too long ago, there is no place like the LBS.

I totally agree DN.
I try and give all my business to the local IBS’s first because I figure they need my money far more than chain stores do. If I need a wheel built or particular parts for something like say, a bottom bracket or what not, they can’t be beat. They have a wealth of knowledge & usually share it unselfishly as well. It’s when they fail at something that I feel they should have done better at that I post it here. I’m hoping that by my doing so, that other shops will read this and strive to not make the same mistakes.

As far as Brooks products go, as I stated above, I went to two “authorized” dealers to find that they didn’t have one thing by Brooks, not even a sign or decal displayed, let alone anything in stock.
To me, that was unacceptable & worthy of public ridicule…

Posted By: dNI get the feeling that 'authorized dealer' doesn't mean much these days.

Boy, is that ever true. When I was searching for a Mavic Caliper Brake Adjuster, I went to fifteen different Mavic authorized dealers (authorized in the sense that Mavic lists them on the site). Until I got to Montano Velo, the responses to my request for an item listed in Mavic's catalog for several years were:

• I've never heard of it. Are you sure it's a Mavic thing?


• (after looking in catalog) Well, damn; I've never seen that before. Why would you even want one?


• We're Mavic dealers? I know we have a lot of Mavic stuff, but I didn't know we were official dealers.

I suspect that nobody in a shop except the owner has a complete picture of which brands they represent, anyway. Most of the shops in my area (both chains and independents) have a high percentage of 20-something employees, who aren't going to be included in the bigger business decisions, like what stock the store's going to carry. In a chain, there's likely to be staff meetings (just before calisthenics and singing the company song!) where management announces what brands the store represents. In an independent LBS, the counter kid may not know whether the store is a dealer for anything specific unless the owner directly tells him so.

I'm not clear that the dealership thing in bikes includes much from the dealer, anyway. Sometimes there's some signage (a banner, a plastic plaque), but not much else. I'd imagine that an authorized dealer gets more favorable wholesale terms, such as lower prices for stock. But it's not as if any store doesn't have the ability to order anything, at least for components. I'm guessing that the dealer agreements for full bikes are exclusive, like car dealerships. E.g., Specialized can only sell bikes to their authorized dealers, and not to the Trek authorized dealer two blocks away.

I've never worked in a shop, so I don't know the economics. I suspect it's something like an independent bookstore: The store buys inventory from the distributor at the wholesale price, and sends back unsold inventory for a refund. Out-of-stock items that have to be ordered at customer request get a deposit upfront, so the store isn't tying up so much of its own money in it. It means that each LBS has to make a choice about which items to stock, because money spent on an item that doesn't move is money that's no longer available to get something else.

In Northern California, cycling is less seasonal than in other places; riding in the winter means you'll get wet and cold, but you won't have to plow through snowdrifts or slide on black ice. Even so, the LBSes recognize a 'season'; during the October-April offseason, they don't recycle stock except on the items they know they can sell. I went into an LBS in March looking for 700x28 gumwalls; the LBS had several other sizes, but they said they weren't placing a regular order for any tires until the season started, simply because they didn't have the cash lying around.

sorry, I have a great local one here, but its in the buckeye state.... must have got unlucky... most of the "chain" and outlet stores i go to (like, for example, a specialized dealer..) dont have much if anything in stock... i typically use a small shop owned here, which would be baer wheels... they usually have what you want, as well as tri-tech multi sport, both very well stocked and cary the high end parts im looking for, as well as a slew of nice nice frames in stock. Then theres smaller ones that cannot afford that inventory, and upstart ones that seem to be the same, and the brand/chain ones just kinda suck usually..

Posted By: eaglerockWell, OK. But let's all acknowledge that the definition of "well-stocked" is "they carry the item I want to buy right now, so I don't have to wait for it". If they don't have exactly the item you want, then they're poorly-stocked by definition. Retailers stock things that lots of people buy. If you want to buy the same thing that a lot of other people already buy, you're covered; otherwise, not so much.

what the hell do you guys expect, really. are we all so spoiled by the internet.

maybe we could all band together and start an independent LBS in all major cities across the united states and europe that has access to all bicycle components ever produced. they could be stored in a secret storage facility buried under the rocky mountains. this storage center, lets call it "Warehouse X" could then be linked to all the satellite stores by means of a Willy Wonka style teleporter, allowing old velo-curmudgeons to get every part they could ever want without waiting!

who's in

Posted By: bwhsh8rsorry, I have a great local one here, but its in the buckeye state.... must have got unlucky... most of the "chain" and outlet stores i go to (like, for example, a specialized dealer..) dont have much if anything in stock... i typically use a small shop owned here, which would be baer wheels... they usually have what you want, as well as tri-tech multi sport, both very well stocked and cary the high end parts im looking for, as well as a slew of nice nice frames in stock. Then theres smaller ones that cannot afford that inventory, and upstart ones that seem to be the same, and the brand/chain ones just kinda suck usually..

Yea, to bad there not in Toledo instead of Columbus. I’d sure check ‘em out!
I’m not above shopping in Ohio, even if I do live in Michigan (GASP!).

Posted By: Joshua A.C. Newman
Here's the thing, though: I can order stuff off the Internet, but for some reason, my LBS can't, really.

I just ran into this yesterday, trying to order a 36h Velocity B43. I'm kinda stuck too because I am trying to use up a $150 merch credit.

4. What your LBS can do, that the internet cannot, is make sure that you get the right thing when you're dropping that hard-earned dough. Sure, you can get opinions from the web but it's not like you have any comeback if the Velospace forum /bikeforums/XYZFixed gives you bad advice. If an LBS sells you the wrong part, you can go back and complain/get a refund. As such, your LBS has a vested interest in making sure that you get the right part, the first time.

Think you need an ISO taper Phil Wood bottom bracket for those Dura-ace square-taper track cranks? I mean, they're NJS, so they must be ISO taper, right? Nope - they have a very specific taper, known as JIS-Short-Taper. Only Phil and the actual Dura-ace BB come with this taper. I get about one customer every three months that comes in with a $5000+ time trial bike that they bought from the internet, thinking it was a road bike, asking me to fit them to it. It's tough to tell someone that they just wasted 5 Gs on an eBay purchase that they now have to sell on at a loss.

6. Believe it or not, people at most LBSes actually want to help you. Yes, I know we can be a surly bunch sometimes - especially when I'm coming back from my pre-work morning ride and I get ambushed as I try to unlock the shop door so I can get in and get changed in the hour that remains before we open - but we really do want to help. Some LBSes make like they don't want to help - especially the snooty ones that try to sell you a custom Serotta when you specifically tell them that your budget is $2000 - but even they, secretly, want to help get you on a bike. If they didn't, they'd be working in insurance or somesuch. Just treat the workers with respect, maybe bring them a six-pack when you turn up five minutes before closing with an emergency repair that'll take half-an-hour but will make the difference between you making that group ride the next day or not, and you'll be golden. Some of my closest riding buddies are folks that I've met through selling them anything from an innertube to a custom steel track frame to a ProTour-level roadbike.

7. Bringing up internet pricing in an LBS is a very thorny issue. It's like when your wife comes home with a new dress and you don't really like it - there's a very specific way to go about it that doesn't end up with you sleeping on the couch. By all means, suggest that you've found that part online for X dollars. DO NOT, under any circumstances, ask the LBS to match the price. We can't. We just cannot afford to. If we could, that's the price we would quote you in the first place. It's not like a car dealership, where the prices are all artificially high and we expect you to talk us down. We price things as cheaply as we can to make sure there's at least a 50/50 chance you'll buy them, and we really don't have much, if any, room to maneuver downwards. That said, if you need to save however many dollars it is you save by buying online, that's ok. We understand. Just don't try to demand that we match the price and then get offended when we refuse. Hell, if you buy a group online and then pay us to build your bike for you, we'll probably make just as much profit in labor costs as we would have done on the group (which we would have installed for free if you'd bought it from us), so we're all good.

8. It's late and I should go to bed.

TURPE,
Your words make a lot of sense to me. I’m not in the bike business, & freely admit that I don’t know how it works. THANK YOU for taking the time to explain these points to me (us), & as such I’ve grown further respect for my local LBS’s & there need for my patronage.

Next time I get an email from a bike shop, bike manufacturer, user, or anyone else complaining about people ragging on them or their goods or their services I'm going to point them to this thread as an example of how to engage consumers online.

When an articulate person presents their point of view in a logical, honest, and clear way everyone wins.