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- CommentAuthorjsphillips93
- CommentTimeAug 24th 2009
I just got in my new Shimano Dura-Ace track hubs (7600 high flange)...I'm hoping my LBS ordered my spokes today like I asked but I was just reading the packet that came with my hubset and it advises against radial lacing the front because there will be too much tension/stress on the hub eyelets...I ordered spokes before I knew this planning on radial lacing the front. Advice? Should I: go for it...it won't matter? or should I heed the warning and drop some more money and wait a little longer for new spokes? -
- CommentAuthorthe rabbi
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009
it advises against it... this seems like a no-brainer. -
- CommentAuthorsavestheday
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009
They void the warranty but you won't have a problem with the hub breaking if that's what your worried about. People started to get scared of radial laced hubs when old campy's started tearing the hub flanges off so the warning stuck. Unless you weigh close to 300 lbs don't be scared to radial lace it.
Live a little. -
- CommentAuthormmediaman
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009
If you weigh on the higher end, don't radial lace it. When cornering they are more likely to give way and taco. Crossing is strength, radial is for looks. -
- CommentAuthorasmorse211
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009
Radial lacing is actually stronger laterally an weaker torsionally. I had the same dilema with my wheels on my iro and my brother-in-law, who was a bike mechanic for 7 years, told me this. He explained that in a lateral impact such as a bump up a curb or a hard wheelie landing the force will transfer through the spoke to the hub. He told me that on a radial laced wheel that force will taken straight on instead of at an angle. On the contrary he explained that on a 2or3X wheel (rear) the force of the cog turning the hub will pull the spoke close to straight as oppose to pulling sideways on a radial laced spoke. I hope this makes sense. I am not the most technical writer and would do a much better job describing my thoughts with hands on examples. -
- CommentAuthoreaglerock
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009
For what it's worth, the only manufacturer I know of that warranties their retail hubs (as opposed to their own in-house wheel builds) for radial lacing is Phil Wood.
It's a CYA thing. Most hubs will survive, no matter what goofball lacing pattern you use. But risk aversion is the standard instinct of all manufacturers, especially those that make objects that put their users in situations where maiming and death have a high probability of occurring. Phil's a small manufacturer; the manufacturing and the tech support are done within spitting distance of each other (and Phil does the overwhelming majority of service on their own components, 'cause they've got the tools), so the people who design/build the hubs can see what fails. They have enough confidence in the studlyness of their hubs that they're willing to accept the liability/risk that you'll come up with a demon lacing pattern that'll tear the flanges. They don't think you can trash their hubs, and they're prepared to bet you can't; they''ll almost certainly win that bet.
I have a late '70s Mavic/Phil wheel, onto which a previous owner threaded a White Industries ENO freewheel. I want to convert it to 7-speed for a touring bike, but a BMX freewheel socket won't get over a Phil axle. I emailed Phil's tech support to whine. I got an email back from Tech Guy Mark the next morning, pointing out that Phil uses an 18mm axle, not the 14mm axle more common in single speed hubs. He said he'd heard of shops drilling out standard BMX sockets to pull such things off; but he suggested that, since the bearings are 30 years old, I might as well bring it in the next time I'm in the South Bay, and they'd pull the freewheel/replace the bearings/reconfigure the end caps for 7-speed. I'm hoping they'll let me watch, so maybe I'll learn something.
Phil for the win - again. -
- CommentAuthorthe rabbi
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009
shimano and campy have redesigned their low flange road hubs to be radial-lace friendly. -
- CommentAuthoreaglerock
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009
Posted By: the rabbishimano and campy have redesigned their low flange road hubs to be radial-lace friendly.
Do they now warranty them for radial lacing? If so, good for them. I'd be interested in seeing the references; at the moment, Campagnolo's site has the hub instruction manuals from 2007, which explicitly states that radial lacing voids the warranty. Shimano's site (newly redone in Flash, with tons of dead links) lists radial lacing as an option on the 105 front hub, but that seems to be it. -
- CommentAuthorthe rabbi
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009 edited
i've read numerous places the dura ace is compatible:Blue Sky CyclingThe Shimano Dura Ace 7800 Front Hub features Super lightweight and rigid alloy axle, is radial lacing compatible, smooth rolling, and Double Contact Sealing.
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- CommentAuthorjsphillips93
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009
i've got a 7600...but LUCKILY i called my lbs today and they couldn't find the specs on my rim so they hadnt ordered them yet...so i guess ill just 3x both front and rear. thanks for all the replies! -
- CommentAuthorNash
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009
I ride a rear wheel that is radially laced on the non drive side and I have had no problems with it but it does change with what hubs and rims you are running. to quote the great Sheldon Brown
Radial spoked (cross 0) wheels have the spokes going straight out from the hub. This pattern is only suitable for front wheels that don't use hub brakes. They are very cool-looking, and are often a good choice for the ultimate in performance, because they are slightly lighter and, in theory, may have a very slight aerodynamic edge.
There are two things to watch out for with radial wheels. Because the nipples point straight inward from the rim, they can turn more easily in most rims than when they are bent to a slight angle by a semi-tangent spoke pattern. This ease of turning increases the risk of them unscrewing themselves on the road. To prevent this, nipples on radial wheels should not be lubricated, and it is a good idea to use a spoke adhesive such as Wheelsmith Spoke Prep or one of the milder flavors of Loctite ® on them.
The other potential problem with radial wheels is that since the spokes are trailing straight outward on the hub flange, they can possibly rip the outer edge of the flange right off along the line of the spoke holes. This is most likely to happen with small flange 36 hole hubs, because there is less metal between the spoke holes. If a used hub is re-laced radially, the notches left by the old spokes can act as stress risers, further weakening the flange.
Many hub manufacturers specifically recommend against radial spoking for this reason, and will not honor warrantys on hubs that have been spoked radially.
Some folks will say that no bicycle wheels should be radially spoked for this reason, so do this at your own risk. In my experience, it's generally OK with good quality hubs that have forged shells.
If you want to take your chances and try a radial spoked front wheel, I would advise avoiding using thick spokes and very high tension. Since front wheels are generally pretty trouble-free compared with rears, you don't need super-high tension on a front wheel that uses a reasonable number of spokes.
Bicycle folklore has it that radial-spoked wheels give a "harsh" ride, because the shorter spokes are less "stretchy" than the longer spokes used in semi-tangent wheels. This is hooey!
Wheels with hub brakes and drive wheels should never be radially spoked. Due to the near perpendicular angle of the spoke to the hub's tangent, any torque applied at the hub of a radial spoked wheel will result in a very great increase in spoke tension, almost certainly causing hub or spoke failure. -
- CommentAuthorJoshua A.C. Newman
- CommentTimeAug 25th 2009
Thanks, Nash. I was about to post that.
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